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Post by Ember on Apr 8, 2018 14:31:22 GMT -5
Sorry, Ember I didn't realize there were two posts. Why is he asking if he listed the rules? Is this one of those there is no right answer questions? He was asking to see if anyone saw a rule that left an opening for interpretation that might be beneficial. For example, if you posted a set of rules that didn't state you needed 4 wheels, you would only run 3. If your rules don't state that you must run your wheels in their standard orientation, you may decide to run them in reverse pattern....etc.
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Eagle
Goodfella
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Eagle on Apr 8, 2018 14:58:58 GMT -5
Well then he'll love the question I sent him! I can find all kinds of things. Don't know that they will help or hurt, but if it doesn't specifically exempt it's not even a grey area. And, I love grey areas! They may not all be fast ideas, but at least it gives you room to play and innovate!
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Post by Ember on Apr 8, 2018 17:14:38 GMT -5
I see very little, if any, areas open for interpretation in their rules. IMO they have the best set of rules in all of Pinewood Derby.
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Post by Vitamin K on Apr 8, 2018 18:12:15 GMT -5
I see very little, if any, areas open for interpretation in their rules. IMO they have the best set of rules in all of Pinewood Derby. They do a good job being clear, but, IMO, the liberal wheels rules makes the cost to be competitive extremely high. The award for best rules in the biz has to go to the Northern Star Council. Pity they don't do live proxy.
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Post by Ember on Apr 8, 2018 20:08:01 GMT -5
They have very similar rules. I like the slightly more liberal wheel rule at MA, especially since they banned reverse mount. You can't go too light now without running into trouble with wheel flex.
In NSC you're still going to need a fully machined 1.160 x 7.5mm wheel. Really the only difference in the two is you can remove a little material from inside the wheel at MA. Since NSC doesn't weigh wheels, and allows the use of air shields, it would be very difficult to detect if someone removed a bit of material from inside the wheel to gain an advantage.
You can't really get an unfair wheel advantage at MA. As long as all the markings are there, and the tread is at least 7.5mm, they don't care where you remove weight, or how light you go. IMO It was very smart of them to ban reverse mounting, they know if you go too light now you're only going to hurt yourself.
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Post by Vitamin K on Apr 8, 2018 20:55:04 GMT -5
They have very similar rules. I like the slightly more liberal wheel rule at MA, especially since they banned reverse mount. You can't go too light now without running into trouble with wheel flex. In NSC you're still going to need a fully machined 1.160 x 7.5mm wheel. Really the only difference in the two is you can remove a little material from inside the wheel at MA. Since NSC doesn't weigh wheels, and allows the use of air shields, it would be very difficult to detect if someone removed a bit of material from inside the wheel to gain an advantage. You can't really get an unfair wheel advantage at MA. As long as all the markings are there, and the tread is at least 7.5mm, they don't care where you remove weight, or how light you go. IMO It was very smart of them to ban reverse mounting, they know if you go too light now you're only going to hurt yourself. I admit that I am curious as to how they verify that wheels haven't had material removed from the inside when air shields are in use. That said, the guys who organize the NSC stuff are old pros and they do know their stuff. Possible they have their ways. I think, to me, the big difference is that a set of R160s is gonna run you 18 bucks, while a set of Mid-Am wheels sets you back 45. Maybe not a huge deal to some, but when you've got 3 kids potentially sending cars, it is significant. Also, the performance gap between R160s and box stock wheels is a lot closer than that of Mid-Am wheels and box stock. Probably won't win running box stock wheels in an NSC race, but you can at least finish respectably. I do applaud the banning of reversed wheels in MA. That stuff was getting kind of crazygonuts.
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Post by Professor Moriarty on Apr 14, 2018 13:38:09 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder about that 2.0g rule for SS...(league racing)
I mean... why not just make it... all markings visible and as light as you dare to go... with no reversed wheels.
Now that sounds interesting to me.
I’ll tell ya why... and it has to do with the pre2009 wheels
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Post by Ember on Apr 14, 2018 16:24:39 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder about that 2.0g rule for SS...(league racing) I mean... why not just make it... all markings visible and as light as you dare to go... with no reversed wheels. Now that sounds interesting to me. I’ll tell ya why... and it has to do with the pre2009 wheels It would certainly make more sense, and that's why MA does it, just keep all markings and the 7.5mm rule. Do they actually take wheels off and weigh them at the league races? It seems like that would take an awful lot of time. How do they secure their wheels strong enough for shipping and racing, and make them easy enough to remove for weighing? I glue mine in once I have everything set and tuned.
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Post by The Zeebzob on Apr 14, 2018 16:49:24 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder about that 2.0g rule for SS...(league racing) I mean... why not just make it... all markings visible and as light as you dare to go... with no reversed wheels. Now that sounds interesting to me. I’ll tell ya why... and it has to do with the pre2009 wheels It would certainly make more sense, and that's why MA does it, just keep all markings and the 7.5mm rule. Do they actually take wheels off and weigh them at the league races? It seems like that would take an awful lot of time. How do they secure their wheels strong enough for shipping and racing, and make them easy enough to remove for weighing? I glue mine in once I have everything set and tuned. After the race, a random number of through 4 is called out. That references a wheel position in the car. The top finishers will have that wheel removed and weighed. No one glues in the axles. If you know what you are doing, the axles are just fine in shipping.
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Post by Ember on Apr 14, 2018 17:37:51 GMT -5
It would certainly make more sense, and that's why MA does it, just keep all markings and the 7.5mm rule. Do they actually take wheels off and weigh them at the league races? It seems like that would take an awful lot of time. How do they secure their wheels strong enough for shipping and racing, and make them easy enough to remove for weighing? I glue mine in once I have everything set and tuned. After the race, a random number of through 4 is called out. That references a wheel position in the car. The top finishers will have that wheel removed and weighed. No one glues in the axles. If you know what you are doing, the axles are just fine in shipping. I guess most are using a #43 bit for .091 shafts? Perhaps it's not as critical to glue your axles for league racing, knowing your cars will be handled well and knowing the stop section is top notch. We had a couple poor souls at Districts whose cars left the raised stop section, only to fall a couple feet to the concrete floor, they were never the same afterward. I've also heard rumors of overzealous Scout dads pushing wheels in on competitors cars, I wouldn't put it past some of the ones I've seen.....it's glue for me at Scout races.
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Post by The Zeebzob on Apr 14, 2018 18:48:02 GMT -5
After the race, a random number of through 4 is called out. That references a wheel position in the car. The top finishers will have that wheel removed and weighed. No one glues in the axles. If you know what you are doing, the axles are just fine in shipping. I guess most are using a #43 bit for .091 shafts? Perhaps it's not as critical to glue your axles for league racing, knowing your cars will be handled well and knowing the stop section is top notch. We had a couple poor souls at Districts whose cars left the raised stop section, only to fall a couple feet to the concrete floor, they were never the same afterward. I've also heard rumors of overzealous Scout dads pushing wheels in on competitors cars, I wouldn't put it past some of the ones I've seen.....it's glue for me at Scout races. I ream the holes to the size of the axle. That will still have enough resistance to keep the axles in place. If the hole gets too loose, a drop of water will swell the hole slightly. Definitely proper stop section is key. With some of the contraptions out there for stopping, I don't even think glue would help the axles/tuning survive Proper shipping boxes are really important too. The real variable is the USPS (or other carrier). Short of that, I have full trust in these guys.
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Post by Professor Moriarty on Apr 14, 2018 19:16:24 GMT -5
Yeah... screw glueing... What glue do you use? White glue?
Ream until it is snug but not tight or loose...
Use pusher holes to push the axles out.
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Post by Ember on Apr 14, 2018 20:26:03 GMT -5
When we use aftermarket axles I use a #43 bit...as we're building and playing around with fender fit, or installing air shields, wheel weights etc...I use a Revell axle, which goes in nice and easy and doesn't enlarge the hole. When we get ready to install the "real" axles, I plunge them in each hole to relieve the hole a bit, and to make sure we won't run into any surprises during installation with the wheel attached.
We usually play around with different wheels and preps, so we end up pulling the axles a few times. Often this makes the hole a bit loose, in which case I inject a shot of water in the holes with a syringe.
After we get everything tuned to our liking, I put a drop of CA in the peek/relief holes. If the car gets dropped or banged, the wheel might break, or the axle might bend, but the axle sure isn't budging. If we ever need to pull a wheel, I just put a couple drops of acetone in the peek holes with a syringe, and let it dwell a few minutes. We can then usually pull the wheel without any damage.
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Post by Professor Moriarty on Apr 14, 2018 20:37:09 GMT -5
Man... I gotta say...
That sounds like extreme overkill.
It might even slow you down too...
Those CA fumes like to attach to oily surfaces and create a crust...
Just like CSI PWD.
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Post by Ember on Apr 14, 2018 21:04:27 GMT -5
It's never been an issue... I usually mask off the wheel area with painters tape. However, there have been times where I rushed and haven't used tape, and never saw a loss in speed. I personally can't imagine ever racing at A Scouting event, or sending a car through the mail, without gluing the axles.
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