Eagle
Goodfella
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Eagle on May 14, 2018 8:46:31 GMT -5
I have an idea for a Concept Car that I don't think has ever been built. Personally I don't have the tools or skills to actually build it. I can however design and illustrate it pretty much if anyone is interested in trying it. The design in some ways goes against the current body designs and what most people think about "wedge" body aerodynamics and fenders. Any interest? I'm game This is the place! I've said the very same thing. Post it up, get some input, and see who steps up.
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Post by Sugar Creek Racing on May 14, 2018 12:22:30 GMT -5
Pictures please...
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Post by coffinnailracing on May 14, 2018 18:34:59 GMT -5
Ok, so here it is. The general idea to start is a "tear drop" body, reasons being a "Wing"shape is fine if you want lift or down force. The standard "wedge" shape has a similar problem of creating down force. A "Tear Drop" has equal flow top and bottom and a round nose has been proven to be more effective than most sharpe nose shapes. Using Razor wheels would allow for fenders to be much thinner and lighter as well as shaped to help steer or stabilize the car. The areas I'm not sure about are : 1. Setting the body rearward between the fenders and using a small metal rod between the fenders to rest on the track starting post. Reason is to move tail weight slightly higher up the track. P.S. do those high start bars I've seen on cars work at all? 2. Shaping Tungsten into the tail shape ... tungsten putty maybe? Does it harden? 3. Using a small teflon ball in the fender to ride the rail instead of the wheel, reducing wheel drag. Overall its like building a fender wedge car, but backwards sort of and the fender design is different as well. Thoughts?
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Eagle
Goodfella
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Eagle on May 15, 2018 13:02:13 GMT -5
I like the body idea. I have and am working on something similar for it and similarly shaped fenders. If I had a couple of these guys mad skills and equipment, I'm sure I would have been done and tested by now. With the fenders shaped similarly the challenge has been what to do with the rear wheels. I think ultimately, if I don't get a teammate I'll inset the rear instead of the front. I know you want to keep the rears away from the rail.So,I haven't done it. And, getting the weight right with such a body design would be a long process. Anytime the weight is built in you end up either over or under and then have to figure out what to do.
Since no one else bit, I'll put the car back in your court with a few questions. 1) Where are you looking to run such a car? 2) What is the wheelbase on this design? If the wheels are place that far forward on the body, and the fenders are in front of that either the pic is way off or the wheelbase is really short. Remember 7" total front to back. 3) What would you run between the fenders (for the starter pin)? Nothing can stick out (at least in the rules that I have read). 4) If you can run razor wheels, what would be the advantage of the fenders?
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Post by coffinnailracing on May 15, 2018 13:46:33 GMT -5
I like the body idea. I have and am working on something similar for it and similarly shaped fenders. If I had a couple of these guys mad skills and equipment, I'm sure I would have been done and tested by now. With the fenders shaped similarly the challenge has been what to do with the rear wheels. I think ultimately, if I don't get a teammate I'll inset the rear instead of the front. I know you want to keep the rears away from the rail.So,I haven't done it. And, getting the weight right with such a body design would be a long process. Anytime the weight is built in you end up either over or under and then have to figure out what to do. Since no one else bit, I'll put the car back in your court with a few questions. 1) Where are you looking to run such a car? 2) What is the wheelbase on this design? If the wheels are place that far forward on the body, and the fenders are in front of that either the pic is way off or the wheelbase is really short. Remember 7" total front to back. 3) What would you run between the fenders (for the starter pin)? Nothing can stick out (at least in the rules that I have read). 4) If you can run razor wheels, what would be the advantage of the fenders? 1. I have no plans to race it myself, just a concept. But anyone can race it if they want to try to build it. 2. I'd have to assume it would be a shorter wheel base, but I didn't have a number in mind at the time, car would be 7" at the fenders, body might not be. 3. I thought a piece of piano wire (1/16) or wood dowel run between the fenders at the tip would do. 4. Thin fenders would look cool for one thing. But really I'm thinking the air foil effect might help the car track better in traffic
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Post by Sugar Creek Racing on May 15, 2018 14:38:31 GMT -5
Nice sketching technique!
I'm actually working on a design that utilizes the tear drop with standard wheels. Picture a catamaran with the tear drop as the axle cross bars.
I've never worked with razor wheels, but, my first thought is that you'd actually be increasing the cross section of the car vs. just the razor wheels. Your idea might give more advantage if adapted to BSA style wheels. (But I'm biased because this is almost what I built for MA)
I'll let some of the guys with more razor knowledge chime in...
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Post by Chuy on May 15, 2018 14:54:17 GMT -5
One thing to consider is that airfoils are the most aero of 3d shapes. Flat plates (basically a 2d) are still more aero (See image below). If you still want to use that shape, consider NACA airfoil HT08 - Drela HT08. (Max thickness 5% (.35") at 20% of length
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Post by Chuy on May 15, 2018 14:59:23 GMT -5
Reynolds number is about 51,800 - 55,300 for our speeds so in between 10^4 and 10^5 where the flat plate crosses the 0.01 line. Assuming the following
Free-stream fluid velocity: 15-16 ft/s Characteristic distance (or pipe diameter): 7" Fluid density: 1.177kg/m^3 Fluid viscosity (dynamic): 1.846E-005 kg/m-s
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Eagle
Goodfella
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Eagle on May 15, 2018 15:06:51 GMT -5
Chuy, We are talking to an artist here. So, since I'm somewhere in between engineer and artist - let me see if I understand. If not, maybe you can help me as well. If airflows are the most aerodynamic why does the chart appear to show flat laying down has less drag? And, what does NACA airfoil HT08 - Drela HT08 look like?
Most importantly, thoughts, science, engineering on razor wheels vs razor wheels with fenders?
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Post by Chuy on May 15, 2018 15:55:17 GMT -5
a flat plate has less drag than an airfoil (Drag coefficient airfoil = 0.05 , flat plate = 0.01). The problem, of course, is that you need some depth or thickness for the weights. HT08 (ht08-il)
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Post by coffinnailracing on May 15, 2018 16:15:32 GMT -5
Reynolds number is about 51,800 - 55,300 for our speeds so in between 10^4 and 10^5 where the flat plate crosses the 0.01 line. Assuming the following Free-stream fluid velocity: 15-16 ft/s Characteristic distance (or pipe diameter): 7" Fluid density: 1.177kg/m^3 Fluid viscosity (dynamic): 1.846E-005 kg/m-s ACK ! science, brain hurt, brain hurt bad, no hurt brain.
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Post by coffinnailracing on May 15, 2018 16:30:57 GMT -5
Nice sketching technique! I'm actually working on a design that utilizes the tear drop with standard wheels. Picture a catamaran with the tear drop as the axle cross bars. I've never worked with razor wheels, but, my first thought is that you'd actually be increasing the cross section of the car vs. just the razor wheels. Your idea might give more advantage if adapted to BSA style wheels. (But I'm biased because this is almost what I built for MA) I'll let some of the guys with more razor knowledge chime in... Thanks, kinda loose, but gets the idea across I guess. Yes, fenders are more effective on BSA wheels due to the wheels large face. Yes, I'm sure Razor wheels are more effective at passing through air than fenders. Still, the fenders being so slim should pass air and steer it while also putting the spinning wheel in a air neutral space. Plus it would look cool as shit ππ Your idea is interesting as well. A variation of the Hole Body style. My understanding of that style is the air needs to be move twice. But it can make for a very lite body
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Eagle
Goodfella
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Eagle on May 15, 2018 17:02:44 GMT -5
Sugar Creek Racing"I'm actually working on a design that utilizes the tear drop with standard wheels. Picture a catamaran with the tear drop as the axle cross bars." How far along are you? I have drawn and attempted something like you are describing.
So, far I have been unable to complete with my expertise and equipment. But, I do think the idea has great potential.
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Post by Chuy on May 15, 2018 17:59:26 GMT -5
Nice sketching technique! I'm actually working on a design that utilizes the tear drop with standard wheels. Picture a catamaran with the tear drop as the axle cross bars. I've never worked with razor wheels, but, my first thought is that you'd actually be increasing the cross section of the car vs. just the razor wheels. Your idea might give more advantage if adapted to BSA style wheels. (But I'm biased because this is almost what I built for MA) I'll let some of the guys with more razor knowledge chime in... Thanks, kinda loose, but gets the idea across I guess. Yes, fenders are more effective on BSA wheels due to the wheels large face. Yes, I'm sure Razor wheels are more effective at passing through air than fenders. Still, the fenders being so slim should pass air and steer it while also putting the spinning wheel in a air neutral space. Plus it would look cool as shit ππ Your idea is interesting as well. A variation of the Hole Body style. My understanding of that style is the air needs to be move twice. But it can make for a very lite body So when we look at drag (for our purposes) there really is two drag forces we deal with. 1) pressure drag/friction - this depends primarily on the area as seen from the front and the speed of that area. It is like your hand when you stick it out the car window. It is harder to hold a clipboard in the wind than your hand. 2)friction drag - to understand this consider we were trying to move the car through molasses instead of air. The car surfaces would stick to the molasses. It would be harder to pull a 10 foot plank through the molasses than a 1" plank because the molasses has more surface area to "grab". Since the razor wheel is basically a flat plate, it doesn't benefit greatly from an airfoil fender to reduce the pressure drag. The additional length and surface area though, does serve to increase the friction drag 4x - 5x.
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Post by Crash Enburn on May 15, 2018 18:26:06 GMT -5
Hmm... Definitely gets me to thinking of the DWS-Style fenders. Is it more aero to have the DWSs, or to have pairs of leading/trailing fenders, then?
Heck, would it be better to have an aero spar across the front to front axles and then a gap until the weighted section of the body?
Design ideas are running amok in my mind right now...
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